Try some; it's good.
Wherein I ramble about books, movies, music, TV shows, my life, and occasionally, hot emo boys.
Monday, May 21, 2007
guest blog (and girl on girl action)
Today I'm guest blogging over at It's Not Chick Porn. The topic is agents and how to get one, and I think it's a pretty helpful article, if you have any interest in such things. Even if you don't, it's worth your time to stop by and comment because saying hi gets you a contest entry.

I'm giving away a $40 Amazon Gift Certificate, plus a copy of The Average Girl's Guide to Getting Laid to the grand prize winner. Two other lucky souls will walk away with their own copies of Guide as well, so definitely stop by. Winners will be announced Wednesday morning.

Okay, the subtitle probably doesn't mean what you think it means. I've been thinking quite a bit this weekend about feminine interpersonal dynamics. Karen posted a link to a letter by Joss Whedon, responding to what happened to Dua Khalil, who was brutally murdered at the end of April in an "honor-killing." Her crime? Falling in love with a Sunni Muslim boy. If that wasn't bad enough, when she was dragged from her home by her family members and stoned in the street, instead of helping her, people in the front row recorded it on their camera phones. I have no words for my loathing.

Dionne asked the following questions: "Why would anyone want to gleefully hurt us in such a way? Why do we tear into each other ourselves?"

I thought she meant figuratively, and I responded:
Studies on feminine interpersonal dynamics seem to indicate that women learn passive-aggressive behavior patterns in early childhood. A strong, confident woman who handles her business in a "masculine" way, that is to say directly and perhaps even confrontationally, is often ostracized by her peers. Women are taught it isn't ladylike to behave in such a way, so they subvert their hostility into catty behaviors that lead to festering jealousies. A group of women, trying to accomplish a project jointly, will likely encounter more petty resentments than a mixed group of male / female colleagues. Furthermore, I would posit that women, as whole, tend to be more uncertain about their own accomplishments, more likely to compare themselves to their female coworkers, than their male colleagues, thus a woman might be more likely to feel threatened by someone else's success.


To my astonishment, some anonymous person appeared to make a link between what I said and this:
"Within the comments there was post about the passive-agressiveness of the female gender. I really didn't think belonged here. I was like WTF. But it really made me think because that study and the quoting of it is also about part of the cultural bias. Because it's a repeat of what I see in the original Daily Mail headline. Women bring it on themselves. See they are passive-agressive and can't work together."


How the hell do you get from "women learn passive-aggressive behaviors early on" and "they deserve to be stoned to death! they can't work together!" I'm gobsmacked at the specious logic involved in such a leap. Perhaps I shouldn't have answered the question on this thread in particular, but I don't agree with the conclusions drawn. This anonymous poster goes on to say that working with women can be a nightmare, but it comes down to the individuals involved, not the gender. I think it's naive to say that gender plays no role in group behavior.

Would you ever find a group straight men sitting around with a Jenny Crusie book, trying to decide just how fat the heroine was in Bet Me? Unlikely. I'm sure you've all been part of a circle where everyone was talking about someone who wasn't there. Maybe the woman's having marital trouble, got a bad haircut, whatever, but instead of telling her what's on the table for discussion (her!) when she walks in the door, everyone pins on a bright smile and changes the subject.

It's bullshit to say there's no trouble in feminine interpersonal dynamics. There's such a dichotomy -- women are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they behave "properly" with subverted hostilities and cattiness and backstabbing, then they're "typical" women. If they handle their business like men, aggressive, confrontational, open, they often get called bitches, butch, dykes, etc.

I'd love to see a happy medium where women can be strong, confident and direct without sacrificing any perception of femininity. We're not there yet, but I think we will be soon. Traditional gender roles are currently in flux, and there's no telling what the future holds. I just cannot accept that what I said is tantamount to saying women deserve to be stoned because they occasionally bicker and gossip. I brought it here because I didn't want to dishonor Dua's memory on a thread devoted to her by arguing. Feel free to give me your thoughts on the subject as well. I can handle hearing I'm wrong, if you disagree.

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10 Comments:
Anonymous April said...
Female bosses are notoriously harder on fellow female employees than male bosses are -- in general. But you're right, it really depends on the individual. Some of my best and worst bosses were female.

I'm afraid I don't really have any disagreement with what you've written. It's been pretty much my own point of view since I entered the work force.

Blogger Ann(ie) said...
I think it's important to note that the more aware we become of 'stereotypes', the more we can be proactive to change them. I often excuse myself when a conversation becomes catty-gossipy, or I'll say, "Would you say that to her face? Can we change the subject please?"

Hopefully our daughters will live in a day when women really will say that to her face, no questions or hesitations. I think women will be better off, as whole, when that's the case. Women can offer each other a lot of positives when we get past the pettiness.

Blogger pure said...
I think I worked in retail too long, but I tend to think everyone has a below norm IQ - equal opportunity elitist. I do have a knee jerk reaction to obtuse or out-and-out stupid women with children. I was raised by a single mother who didn't wait for someone else to do something but figured it out for herself and after being in the world on my own, I have found that my mother as a selfreliant female was a rarity.

In a sociology class I took in college, my female professor discussed how she cries whenever she gets really mad. She can't help it. When she has a fight with her husband, she has call a timeout to stop crying - even tho she's not consciously controlling it - so that she argue without the stigma of being overemotional from tears. Men fight with muscle, women fight with emotion. It didn't occur to me until listening to her that I do the same thing and it's what my mom used to do when I was a kid. and what my female friends do. When I get really upset, my first instinct is to cry and it makes me madder because it feels unfair that I was raised to use my tears in that way. It's been years since that class and I can almost control it now but it takes a conscious effort to go against something that I was raised to do.

As an aside, the gossip-iest people I know are the men I work with. Want to know who is sleeping with who? Ask my supervisor. Want to hear the cattiest remark about someone's clothing or haircut? The 31 year old male art director who sits next me puts the housewives in Edward Scissorhands to shame.

Blogger Kat O+ said...
I didn't agree with a lot of that Anon's conclusions to begin with. But I gave the benefit of doubt and thought maybe they just weren't articulated well.

On the subject of female bosses, the handful of very effective female managers I've come across have displayed a mix of "masculine" and "feminine" tendencies--they were business-focused, assertive, rational and never forgot to send flowers on their employees' birthdays or reward good work. Then again, my most effective male managers exhibited pretty similar behaviour. Maybe the problem lies in how much of the negative behaviour (aggression, cattiness, etc.) we're willing to tolerate from men versus women.

And as an aside, the best childbirth/parenting/marriage advice I've received at work has come from my male managers, but maybe that's unusual!

Blogger Ann(ie) said...
"Men fight with muscle, women fight with emotion."

Wow, pure, that's really insightful. I hadn't thought about it exactly that way, but that seems dead on, the more I think about it.

Anonymous cindy said...
Kat --

you made a good point when you said the best managers exhibit a blend of male / female traits. that just makes good sense to take the best from both, right? i think that's the way people ought to go on.

Anonymous April said...
In light of the male/female traits issue, here's a link you all might like to see:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/print/science/humanbody/sex/add_user.shtml

I scored all the way down the middle, btw.

Blogger Ann(ie) said...
Cool quiz. It made my brain hurt a little. I scored 50% on the women's side. Not as girlie as some, but I didn't score like a man on anything.

Blogger Michele Lee said...
I understand exactly where pure is coming from. My husband believes that crying in arguments is a woman trying to manipulate the other person. I have watched myself a whole lot and I sweat I am not trying to manipulate anyone. Emotions just get to be too mch and crying is the release that will let me get over it so I can actually get something done. I'm like this with frustration too. It just becomes overwhelming and crying, even though I know it's not helping anything, helps drain off some of the emotion so I can get on with things. I really wish he'd let that sink in instead of thinking I'm trying to manipulate him. It sucks that I also have to hide that I'm crying or leave the room until I can stop.

April, women are notoriously harder on women than men are.

I do believe a great deal of men are raised to "take care of women", which can lead to them getting stuck with catty women who abuse them (because men can be verbally and emotionally abused too). I hate how some men have the belief that a woman should never be hit, which has led to some women literally beating men and the men not defending themselves. Sometimes the anti-battery goes too far. Everyone has the right to defend themselves against a physical attack.

Women drive me absolutely crazy. Sure men can be selfish assholes too, but women are far sneakier about it. I rarely expected the betrayals I have gotten from women. The clues just weren't there.

I do however, make it a point to never say anything behind anyone's back that I wouldn't say to their face. My real life friends know that I will be completely honest about them and not pull my punches if I think they're being an idiot or making a stupid choice. They know that no matter what I say if I didn't like them I wouldn't be telling them.

I have, however, been accused of being two faced (for being honest of my opinion mind you) by people online or who were new to being around me because they just could not believe that I could be frank and still care about them. women are the worst when it comes to that. Apparently men understand that you can beat the hell out of something for something stupid they did and still be their friend.

Talking behind people's backs gets nothing done, but getting it all out into the open enables both parties to move past it.

Some women like to not get it out. They like having something to hold over people, something to hurt them with.

Blogger ERiCA said...
I agree with both the generalization (er, in general *g) as well as your statement that gender roles are in flux. I do think we're slowly but surely digging ourselves out of that mindset--if we'll only let us! =)

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